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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 

Midday Arguments

A recent conversation between myself and my friend Jason:
mymothersson: http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html
El Presidente vc: http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/quiz.php
El Presidente vc: shocker
El Presidente vc: I'm a liberal
mymothersson: haha
mymothersson: i'm a libertarian
El Presidente vc: though I tend towards libertarian
El Presidente vc: particularly on personal issues
mymothersson: i agree
El Presidente vc: I suspect you ended up on the left side of the libertarian section, or right in the middle
mymothersson: do you see that GOP sex talk
El Presidente vc: yeah
mymothersson: i'm 90%
mymothersson: funny stuff
mymothersson: carlson tucker is an idio
mymothersson: t
El Presidente vc: I'm 90% on personal issues and 40% on economic issues
El Presidente vc: yeah
El Presidente vc: Jon Stewart tearing him a new one on crossfire is still one of my favorite clips of all time
mymothersson: i'm 90 each libertarian
mymothersson: hahaha
mymothersson: i agree
mymothersson: that was amazing
El Presidente vc: so you're right in the middle
mymothersson: exactly
El Presidente vc: I would have been 100% on personal issues, except that I answered maybe on the draft question
mymothersson: you don't believe they should keep it around?
El Presidente vc: as our purely voluntary military leads to a massive overrepresentation of the lower-classes
mymothersson: as it should be
El Presidente vc: are you shitting me?
El Presidente vc: so you think that the poor should go off and kill and be killed to protect the interests of the wealthier segments of society who can afford to not enlist?
mymothersson: yes
mymothersson: its not my fault their poor
El Presidente vc: I have no problem with voluntary service per se, the problem is that in our society, you have much higher numbers of the lower classes enlisting because they don't have much else in the way of prospects resulting from a lack of quality public education in this country
El Presidente vc: we might have to stop being friends
mymothersson: that doesn't include special cases such as mental or physical retardation
El Presidente vc: though it would help if you could spell/use grammar well
mymothersson: but it does offer them potential
El Presidente vc: it's they're not their
mymothersson: if i was poor i'd go to the army
mymothersson: it pays the bills and would help my kids someday
El Presidente vc: I think you may have missed my point
mymothersson: dude i'm carrying on five conversations at once
mymothersson: spell check is not the point
El Presidente vc: the problem is that there are so few opportunities presented them because of the structure of our society that they are put in a position where joining the military for shit wages is probably their best bet for getting out of the vortex of poverty that they are stuck in
El Presidente vc: so they trade the poverty of the streets for the poverty of the trenches
mymothersson: the military is not shit wages
mymothersson: first off
El Presidente vc: the threat of gang violence for the threat of IEDs
El Presidente vc: with the promise of funding for education and training
El Presidente vc: which are good things
mymothersson: i know plenty of well of people who are in the military who are no issues with it
El Presidente vc: I do too
El Presidente vc: I come from a military family
El Presidente vc: mainly navy and air force
mymothersson: if it offers them a way out then that's all for the best
El Presidente vc: the problem is that the military should reflect the whole country not only the underclasses
mymothersson: "poverty of the streets for the poverty of the trenches" is way to much of a sob story
mymothersson: what, and your going to join?
El Presidente vc: really? have you looked at the military pay scales?
El Presidente vc: I often toy with the idea
mymothersson: the only ones that are willing are the poor, the rich have to much to loose
El Presidente vc: exactly
mymothersson: its still the same now as it would be if it was voluntary and zero draft
El Presidente vc: there is no draft
mymothersson: if we'd quit fucking around overseas we wouldn't need nearly as many and not even have the option
El Presidente vc: it is all voluntary
mymothersson: exactly
mymothersson: but they can still enact the draft
El Presidente vc: so only the poor should have to die for their country?
mymothersson: everyone dies
El Presidente vc: not in the service of their nation
mymothersson: just some for different causes
El Presidente vc: that falls mainly to the poor
El Presidente vc: so they get to die protecting american corporate interests overseas, while the rich reap the benefits of that protection?
mymothersson: so your going to tell me that you should send the educated ones who can move the economy and start business off to the army to kill them off
mymothersson: okay, lets draft the educated and leave the poor to run the country
mymothersson: yeah...that works
El Presidente vc: I'm saying we should start providing a quality education to every american so that the poor aren't left with so few choices that enlisting is one of the only ways they can escape
El Presidente vc: and that's not what I'm saying at all
mymothersson: the conversation started on the draft man
El Presidente vc: I know
El Presidente vc: mymothersson: okay, lets draft the educated and leave the poor to run the country
mymothersson: yeah...that works
El Presidente vc: is not what I said
El Presidente vc: I think that the military should be made up of a cross-section of society
El Presidente vc: people of all education levels, of all economic levels, of all backgrounds
El Presidente vc: and AMERICAN military
El Presidente vc: not a POOR american military
mymothersson: i agree, and i'm saying it will never happen
mymothersson: eduaction is great, but its tough to change
El Presidente vc: then maybe we should have a draft
El Presidente vc: I'd rather have educated people fighting and making military decisions than dumb people
mymothersson: why, there's no need
mymothersson: that's what military academy's are for
mymothersson: to train generals etc
mymothersson: who lead those 'dumb people'
El Presidente vc: your argument is that we should send the poor people to die because they don't have a good education
mymothersson: no its not
El Presidente vc: which is a ridiculous statement
mymothersson: not to die
mymothersson: to join the military
El Presidente vc: mymothersson: so your going to tell me that you should send the educated ones who can move the economy and start business off to the army to kill them off
El Presidente vc: so yes it is
mymothersson: that was making a point to the educated as being the leaders
mymothersson: not the minions
El Presidente vc: tell that to lincoln
mymothersson: and to die was only stated cause i was referencing what you had said earlier
mymothersson: that we 'send them to die'
El Presidente vc: fine, change "send them to die" to "risk their lives"
El Presidente vc: the argument still holds
mymothersson: i agree that their needs to be a change in education, but that happens from the poor taking that step and making money to send their kids to better institutions
El Presidente vc: and look at our current administration and tell me that the "educated" make good leaders
El Presidente vc: bullshit
mymothersson: haha
El Presidente vc: the poor shouldn't have to send their children to private schools to get a quality education when rich suburbanites don't have to
mymothersson: that's not educated
mymothersson: that's eliteist
El Presidente vc: your arguments have been tending towards elitist
mymothersson: i'm not saying i'm better then them
El Presidente vc: you don't have to be elite to be an elitist
mymothersson: talk to any man on the street who works as a shoe shiner and he will tell you he does it everyday to send his kids through school
El Presidente vc: El Presidente vc: as our purely voluntary military leads to a massive overrepresentation of the lower-classes
mymothersson: as it should be
El Presidente vc: that may be
El Presidente vc: that's an elitist statment that I just quoted you one
mymothersson: hahah
mymothersson: that was more to get a rise out of you
El Presidente vc: it worked
El Presidente vc: as I was ready to kick your ass
mymothersson: hahha
mymothersson: an violence is always the answer
El Presidente vc: and am still rather disturbed by the underlying philosophy behind your statement
mymothersson: if you can't win a debate...beat their ass
El Presidente vc: violence is almost never the answer
mymothersson: look, all i'm saying is that the military is a viable option to help the poor move from the poor class to the middle and in turn help their kids get a better education
El Presidente vc: and there's nothing wrong with wanting to do something violent if you don't follow through on it and channel into fruitful discussion
El Presidente vc: I agree
mymothersson: there will always be a poor class no matter what we do
El Presidente vc: true
El Presidente vc: but it shoudn't be one of the only viable options for the poor
El Presidente vc: as I've told you many times, my issue is not with the existence of classes
El Presidente vc: it's the lack of infrastructure to allow for a child to not be denied opportunity because of their parents status
El Presidente vc: all I want is true equality of opportunity
El Presidente vc: not this false american dream that has never existed
mymothersson: when you figure that one out, let me know how to do it
El Presidente vc: universal health care
El Presidente vc: funded education mandates
mymothersson: although i still do think that the american dream is there for those who do work hard
El Presidente vc: it's never really existed
El Presidente vc: people can work hard their whole lives and still end up cleaning shit out of backed up toilets
mymothersson: yeah, but at least they'll have money in their pockets
mymothersson: i would do the same thing to make it happen
mymothersson: the american dream that is
mymothersson: a lot of it comes down to just showing people what work ethic is
El Presidente vc: the american dream is that if you have money you get a huge head start
El Presidente vc: how about we show them positive role models?
mymothersson: yeah but just cause they have a head start doesn't mean everyone else doesn't have opportunity
mymothersson: i agree
El Presidente vc: particularly minority role models, instead of portraying them in society as criminals for the most part
mymothersson: that would be an great start
mymothersson: its like that line that ludacris uses in crash
mymothersson: give them idiots singing crap music and that will keep them down
mymothersson: interesting theory
El Presidente vc: bread and circus
El Presidente vc: the romans knew what they were doing
mymothersson: exactly
El Presidente vc: doesn't make it right
mymothersson: soon we will have the second falling
El Presidente vc: and just because it's the way things are doesn't mean we should accept it
El Presidente vc: nor should we be daunted by the fact that it won't be easy
El Presidente vc: revolution never is
El Presidente vc: however, Dragonforce is Awesome
El Presidente vc: as always
mymothersson: haha
mymothersson: i love dragonforce
El Presidente vc: yeah
El Presidente vc: me too
mymothersson: revolution is tough
mymothersson: we'll see man
El Presidente vc: always is
mymothersson: just as always, there's a long way to go
mymothersson: and a lot of work to do
El Presidente vc: but it need not be violent
El Presidente vc: you've got to start somewhere, sometime
mymothersson: i agree
mymothersson: Right here, right onw
mymothersson: now
El Presidente vc: yeah Jesus Jones
mymothersson: that's Jesus Jason
El Presidente vc: sorry
El Presidente vc: you're right, Jesus Jones said Right Here, Right NOW
El Presidente vc: not onw
El Presidente vc: :-D
mymothersson: hahaha
mymothersson: exactly
El Presidente vc: I may have to put this discussion up as a blog posting
mymothersson: have at it
mymothersson: although i think we may have been arguing similar points with just numerous miscommunications
El Presidente vc: did you see my post about setting up a mutual fund focusing on low-rate loans to developing areas?
mymothersson: yeah i left an anonymous comment
El Presidente vc: it's possible, but at least I come off as the champion of the people and you the elitist backer of the status-quo
mymothersson: hahaha
El Presidente vc: not that I'm complaining
mymothersson: fair enough, it will make for some good conversations with someone
mymothersson: but if i ever run for office it has to come down
El Presidente vc: we may have been agreeing, but we were disagreeing (at least for the first half of the conversation) on basic philosophical tenents
El Presidente vc: fair enough
El Presidente vc: I'm not talking about funding non-profits
El Presidente vc: I'm talking about any organization, mainly for-profit enterprises that operate in a sustainable fashion
mymothersson: huh
El Presidente vc: in order to stimulate the economy of the developing area
mymothersson: oh the blog
El Presidente vc: yeah, I just read your comment
mymothersson: what do you mean "for-profit that operate in a sustainable fashion"
mymothersson: particularly "sustainable fashion"
El Presidente vc: business that operate in a manner that rather than merely removing resources and capital, put them back in as well, economically, socially, and environmentally
mymothersson: ah
mymothersson: there are pleny of business out there that do that currently
El Presidente vc: this is true
mymothersson: just depends on what sector
El Presidente vc: and there should be more
mymothersson: i concur
El Presidente vc: particularly in developing nations and developing areas of first world nations
El Presidente vc: hence my idea of setting up a fund to help them to succeed
El Presidente vc: you've checked out www.rtmark.com
El Presidente vc: yes?
El Presidente vc: as that was kind of what inspired the idea
mymothersson: yeah, but that's all pretty politically charge stuff
mymothersson: and a lot of it is wasteful ideas
El Presidente vc: I like the notion of cultural capital and the idea of setting up an investment fund based on the notion of returns through cultural capital rather than just merely monetary profits
El Presidente vc: though I feel the two are not mutually exclusive and can relatively easily be combined
mymothersson: i just think that those who operated it would have a hard time making a living
mymothersson: but its a great idea for a business
El Presidente vc: not if the people on the ground were good at recognizing good business opportunities
El Presidente vc: it's just a matter of being smart with where you invest the money
mymothersson: this is true
El Presidente vc: and it probably wouldn't end up with the fund manager becoming uber-wealthy as with most funds, but that's kind of the point
mymothersson: exactly
mymothersson: i gotta run to class man
mymothersson: i'll catch up with ya later
El Presidente vc: aight, have fun with the kiddies
mymothersson: fo sho

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